<text date="02/08/2021" audio_length="1:27:30" focus_group_ID="FG4" no_participants="7" participant_source="CTS/FB" WTR_threshold="N/A" co-facilitator_present="no">

<Facilitator: As you know, I'm working on a project about plastic packaging and reusable packaging. And the aim of this project is to try and reduce reliance on single-use plastics. And so there are all these different strands coming together to try and optimise new possible systems for creating reusable packaging. So, yeah, this is really just to hear your views on plastic, on plastic packaging. There's no, you know, prior knowledge that's expected about plastics, it's purely about your own experiences with it and how you feel about it. So I thought, just for a little bit of fun, to learn a bit about each other, we could start by just going round to give our name. And I have a question for you as well, which is: if you could have a lifetime supply of anything from the supermarket, what would it be? And then if you could just nominate somebody to go next. So I'll go first. Hi, I'm [facilitator], as you know, and if I could have a lifetime supply of anything from the supermarket, I think it would be noodles. And if you've got here at the beginning, you probably saw me just finishing my noodley lunch. I get through so many of them. So, er, next I will pick [F10].>

F10: Hi, yeah I'm [F10], I'm based in Staffordshire. Erm... What would I have from the supermarket? Cheese, probably, a really, really, really nice cheese. (laughs)

<Facilitator: Great. And who would you like to go next?>

F10: Erm, I will have... [F11].

F11: Hi, I'm [F11]. I'm based down in South Wales in Caerphilly. And I'm going to be really, really boring and practical on what I'd get from the supermarket. I'd need batteries 'cause I'm always losing them. Er, [M5], do you wanna go next?

M5: Okay. Hi. I'm [M5] from Eastbourne and I'm community leader for [anti-plastic group name]. The thing I would get from a supermarket is whiskey, not because I drink a lot of it, but it's a high... it's expensive. So they might as well provide me with that over a period of a year, er is it for a year? Well over a year, whatever the time is.

<Facilitator: A lifetime, a lifetime.>

M5: A lifetime, oh I see (laughs)

M7: You could power yourself a whiskey-powered car--

F12: Shrewd investor there. 

M5: So, [screen name], could you go next?

F12: Ha, ha. Yeah, no, sorry, it's er, my name's [F12]. I'm in Cardiff. And I'm currently a bicycle shop manager. Bit of an odd situation I found myself in job-wise, but it's good fun. Dirty, but good fun. And I would get dog food, because I'm often running out of dog food. And I actually only go to Asda to buy dog food. And if I didn't have to go to Asda for dog food then fabulous. So yeah, dog food.

<Facilitator: Cool. I, I can see the beneficiary of this purchase there in the corner.>

F11: (laughs)

F12: Yes.

<Facilitator: And who would you like to pick to go next?>

F12: Oh, yeah. Er, [F13].

F13: Hi, I'm [F13], I'm based in Lincolnshire. And I would probably... I think I'd have to go chocolate because that's where I'd make my most [inaudible]. 

F12: Mmm.

F13: Yeah, definitely. Okay, so next, erm, [M6].

M6: Hi, I'm [M6]. I'm a software engineer for [company name], erm and an engineering student. I'm about to finish my master's. The one thing I would buy from the supermarket, it might be cheating a little bit because we, we actually get to shop at Costco. And I buy the giant bags of erm, pancake, American pancake mix. And I'd like a life supply of that, a lifetime supply of that because me and my daughter go through it like a thing possessed, pretty much every morning for breakfast.

<Facilitator: I see a pancakey, a pancakey theme today.>

M6: I do like pancakes.

F13: (laughs) you should try these Dutch ones, they're so good.

M6: I will nominate [M7]. I don't think you've gone yet.

M7: No, I haven't. Thank you. So I'm [M7]. I am based in Hampshire. Erm, and I'm going to join [F10] and cheese. Just cheese--

M6: (laughs)

M7: Have it there in the fridge as a snack. Can't, can't beat just lopping a chunk off just while you're waiting for something else to finish cooking. Or just any excuse, really. So, yeah, cheese.

M6: I've just discovered I'm lactose-intolerant. So I really miss cheese right now.

F11: That's horrible when something like that happens. I have the same with a peanut allergy where it came out of nowhere so I had to give them up. 

M6: Yeah.

F11: It's, it's horrible. So I feel your pain.

M7: I feel like I should say something inclusive now and say, "I don't REALLY like cheese. Erm, it's, it's not that great". [M6] don't worry. Erm--

F10, F11: (laughs)

M6: I know how great cheese it, I just can't eat it. 

M7: (laughs) 

<Facilitator: Yeah, you're not missing out. You're not missing out. Cool, thanks everybody. That was really good. A nice way of learning about everyone. Erm, so there are two kind of main topics that I'd like us to talk about today. The first one is plastics, generally, and the second one is reuse, so reusable packaging and things like that. So to start off with, I have one very big question for you. And that is: what does plastic mean to you? So when you hear the word 'plastic', erm, you know, what, what comes to mind? And anybody can just jump in whenever.>

F12: Grr.

F10: Pollution. 

F12: Yeah, angry.

M7: Wasteful.

F13: Littering.

M6: It has its good and its bad points. Erm, there are there are points where plastic is, is useful and very necessary, like in a medical situation. But this stuff [shows chocolate bar wrapper] drives me nuts. Sorry. Yeah, I can't stand the stuff.

F11: Yeah, I'm with, I'm with [M6] on this one really. Like, if you just say 'plastic', my reaction is, "eh. It's a material. We make things from it". Plastic pollution is, evokes more of that, "Oh, God. Why is this still a problem? Like, how have we not fixed it yet?" But there's that understanding that plastic in and of itself is not necessarily the, the big bogeyman it's, it's more the misuse of it, or the excessive use of it.

M6: Yeah. It's the inability to be able to do something practical with it afterwards and treating it as a waste material. It doesn't have to be treated as a waste material.

F13: [inaudible] as well. Sorry. It's the unnecessary use. Sometimes you can get like, plastic within plastic within plastic with packaging and it drives me crazy.

M6: Yeah, unnecessary packaging, like, like oranges that have been skinned and then placed in a plastic container. Who is that for? If you struggle to open the orange, you're also going to struggle to open the container. 

F13: (laughs)

F11: Or plastic-wrapping four tins of beans, or plastic [inaudible] drinks cans.

M6: Yeah--

M5: I was saying, 'permanency' is my word that I would introduce, because I don't care whether it's single-use or [inaudible] use or longevity's in it, it's still permanent. And as soon as it's produced, it will never go away, unless it's incinerated or turned into something obnoxious, so--

M6: Well, there are ways and means of 100% recycling plastics, but it's, it's a design that's currently in its infancy, you use a technique called thermocracking. And that can turn plastic back into Plaxx, which is a, erm, which is basically the oil, and you can then turn that back into plastic, but the company that's actually invented it, it will happen to be in Swindon, are, erm [inaudible]. But that's, I don't know how many years away they are. 

M5: Well, that's--

F11: That sounds interesting--

M5: It is. I mean there's lots of groups though doing stuff like that there's, erm, there's a group in Newhaven just down the road from me where they are turning waste, you know, contaminated plastic, into benign products at the end. Erm. But the problem with all those ideas is they are so miniscule that they will, I've got to say they will never, never be able to combat the massive problem which is already present. It is brilliant, but, I'm not denying it, but it will never work the problem through.

F12: And you add the energy, carbon footprint aspect as well. So any energy goes into breaking down the plastic...

M6: Yeah. Yeah. Erm, we have to reduce the amount that we, that gets used. Yeah, there are. Yeah--

F12: It's inescapable, isn't it? I used to diet a lot so I used to read the back of the packets for calories. Now I read the back of packets to see, what, if it's recyclable and the majority of time if something is not recyclable, I try my very best not to buy it. But it is unescapable sometimes.

M6: We, of the 10% of plastics that get recycled, and it is only about 10% of plastic that actually becomes recycled, and it's usually only a certain type of plastic. It's the ones and twos on the, that you read in your little bar--

F12: Triangles. 

M6: Yeah, it's only 2% of that ever turns back into plastic that is of the same grade as the plastic was in the first place. Most of the plastic gets recycled back into things like bin liners, and plastic bags, which is much thinner material. So, you never even get with the, with the current way of recycling, you don't even get a similar product back, you get a much more inferior product back, and a much shorter lifetime material.

F12: It's kind of overwhelming as well, because I don't know if you guys have had the opportunity to travel often. But erm, we were in a beach in Vietnam, for example, and all the locals and I'm not being rude or anything that, they you know, they didn't have an understanding perhaps of what this plastic would do to the environment. So there was just plastic bottles littering this beautiful beach in the sea, in this village in Vietnam. And actually, me and my family tried our very best to go and collect it all. But Australia, for example, you know, they, they don't actually have anyone to buy their recycling to turn it into a reusable product. So it's just all piling up in a ginormous warehouse somewhere. Erm--

M6: See Vietnam's got [inaudible] problem [inaudible] rivers in the world, [inaudible] the problem isn't actually necessarily caused by places like Vietnam, China and India. It's the fact that we send our plastics over there to be recycled, and they don't have the capacities to do it. So the, it just ends up washing out to the rivers. And that's how it gets out into the ocean. 

F12: Yeah, I think--

F10: It's like the beaches after lockdown here. I mean, the beaches that we visited in this country after lockdown were horrific. And we have litter bins and rubbish collection, whether you recycle it or not, it doesn't need to be dropped. And the, I mean I regularly litter-pick, there's a group of us that do, and it's just endless, absolutely endless. So in this country, even though we have the facilities, the cars that we take the stuff out in, we just think the headrow or the beach is the place to leave it. So it's just this whole attitude that actually we can trash the planet.

F13: Yes.

M6: Yeah it's the "I'm alright, Jack", kind of--

F10: Yeah. You know. On a beach here it will still go out to sea unless the locals get down before the tide comes back in.

F11: I've, I've found like plastic sweet wrappers chucked in my compost bin on my allotment. And you'd think a bunch of allotment holders would know better than to do that sort of thing and to take the rubbish home.

F10: Yeah.

M5: We've, we've got a thing called 'adopt a beach'. We've got 94 beaches in Eastbourne. And each beach has been adopted by at least one family or one company or shop or something. Some of them have got several adopters, so we adopt, we, we clean the whole lot on a regular basis, once a month, something like that. And so people now even during lockdown that was going on, they say what a clear, clean beach we've got here. So there are ways to get around it.

F10: Yeah but it shouldn't be dropped, though, that's what I'm saying--

F13: Yeah. 

F10: I mean, I live near somewhere called Cannock Chase which is an AONB. And it was horrific during, just as lockdown finished and people could come out and but only go out somewhere because we're about 30 miles north of Birmingham and Wolverhampton. It was appalling, utterly appalling. It shouldn't, we shouldn't have litter, we should not have litter in this country. We--

M5: Could I--

F10: We have cars that we take it out in, [inaudible] I don't know--

M5: I want to--

F10: You know, dog poo bags. [inaudible] but it doesn't get in there.

M5: You see, I think they've, that emphasis is all wrong. That was, that was from the 70s when the companies producing plastics said "we're not gonna be responsible for the waste, let the consumer be responsible, we'll pay for things like Keep Britain Tidy". And they said that it's the litter bug who is responsible for our litter. And our litter is what those companies produce. And they knew right from the start that they couldn't, you couldn't do anything with the litter. Once you've collected it what can you do with it? It's worthless as a raw material. It's massive as a waste product. And they managed to manoeuvre the politicians of the time, I'm thinking about Coca Cola in America in particular, who managed to pull the wool. And from then on in it's the consumer who chucks things who is the focus of criticism and it should be the producers of all this trash that should be the focus of our criticism. And then--

F10: I think it's both. I think it's both. And I think until we start leaping up and down, which people are doing, and trying to make these big companies responsible, then it's a bit like we ship our waste abroad. We only do that because we can. If we have to deal with it all in this country, and you had the mounds piled up outside somewhere in London, rather than some poor soul in Turkey, who has no say as to whether they get pollution dumped from here, if you actually stuck it in the middle of Central London, sure as hell somebody would come up with an idea of what to do with it. It's because we don't have to. We don't have to sort it. And I don't mean on an individual basis, I still don't think it excuses people. What attitude have we got to our planet, if that's okay?

F12: There is a certain aspect of lack of alternative, though, isn't there? So, recently, I think, I think some companies are starting to kind of get into it like Gar-- I think it was Garnier shampoo now do a bar, I bought a Nivea just as a, as a one off, I bought a Nivea face bar thing, I've literally only got one bottle of plastic in my bathroom but only because I bought this massive bottle of shampoo a year ago, and I'm still using it. So everything else is a bar while I'm working my way through this last bottle, but they're finally kind of coming on to it. But that bottle of, that face bar was 8!

F10: Yeah. (laughs)

M5: Yeah.

F12: I only bought it because it was half, half price, and it was as an introductory offer. So I bought it to give it a go and see what it was like but it kind of, it excludes a large proportion of our society and that is the people that are facing poverty on a daily basis. I worked in a women's refuge for a little while and in the cupboard, absolutely everything was in a plastic bottle, not even a bar soap.

M5: Yeah.

F10: Yeah.

[many talking at once]

F11: And what are you gonna pay, 8 for a bar or 75p for Morrison's own brand?

F12: Yeah. 

F11: Shampoo bottle.

F12: Deodorant was six quid in a cardboard, in a cardboard wrapper, versus the 1 deodorant in a plastic.

M5: And who do you think is responsible for that price differential?

[many talking at once]

F12: Well, it's a bit-- it is--

M5: It's the companies. The companies don't want you to transfer over, it's much easier for them to make their usual stuff--

F12: Yeah--

M5: They don't really want you to go over to that. There was a--

<Facilitator: So, I think there was something there from [F13] and [M6]. So [F13], do you want to go and then [M6]?>

F13: Well I was just gonna say that, yeah, I completely agree about with the consumers, because it's only recently that I've sort of started to earn a bit more money in the last year. But other than that, I've always been on tighter budgets [inaudible] working hard. And just, only recently, I've got a higher-paying job so I've been able to afford, I've been able to make them choices. So now when buying this sort of the toothpaste tablets in the thingy, but it's just, it's still driving my husband crazy, 'cause he's like, "But it's so much more expensive!" I'm like, "Yeah but it's better for the environment", he's like [inaudible]. And it's really difficult because I can now justify it to him because I'm earning the money. But before there was no way I could have one, justified it and two, been able to physically afford even smaller alternatives. Because the difference is, and even shopping, because I used to sort of go locally, but then time-wise you have to get shopping delivered. So when you get shopping delivered to your house, you don't get much choice in what you get. And it's all in so much packaging. You can't go down to just didn't have time to go to sort of the local farmers market to get all of my own fruit and vegetables. And it's just, it's bad. But actually they're kind of, quite where it needs to help people that can't afford it. But they're the people that yeah, that can't make them choices even if they want to.

F10: But this is a whole thing around all, all of everything that's going on, isn't it, whether it's electric cars or solar panels, it's the social exclusion of all of this, as well. 

M6: There is, there is an element--

F10: Here in Rugeley we've got something called Zero Carbon Rugeley, which is a big thing happening between Keele and the Centre for Alternative Technology. And we're actually [inaudible] and our power station just got blown up about a month ago, the cooling towers came down, which is erm, we had two big coal-fired erm, power stations. So all that's gone. So the majority of people here cannot afford, you know, zero-plastic shopping, erm, yeah, soap bars. All that sort of thing. And the companies are not going to make it... Unless we keep shouting about it, it's not going to change. You know, it's skewed in completely the wrong direction.

<Facilitator: Yeah, erm, there was something from [M6] there, yeah.>

M6: First of all, when it comes to things like the new technologies being difficult for people to get in on, a lot of that has to do with the cost up front of actually engineering those and I can kind of forgive those 'cause eventually, those will trickle down and those technologies will trickle down to make solar and wind power and electric cars more affordable for people and it will there. It's just going to take a little bit of time. On the case of erm, plastics being like the the only choice people have got, erm, more and more places now are getting zero-waste packaging shops, we've got one down the way from us. And it's actually, it works out to be no more expensive, you get, that big bottle that you're working through with your soap, for example, you know once that's empty, wash it out, take it to one of those, you can fill up another two litres or a litre or however big that is there at 80 pence a litre, and, or 80 pence a kilogramme, however it is that they're measuring it, but you'll get, you'll get a just as good product in the bottle that you had before. And you won't have to be reusing, rebuying any more plastic as that bottle will always be there. It can always be refilled. And I think that if we can start making those more of an option, it's something that when I was out in New Zealand, I was, I was surprised to see in the supermarkets, they, even their supermarkets have erm, refill stations and stuff so that you can actually take glass bottles, or you can take your plastic containers and go and refill it, erm, or even a paper bag, something like that, and you can refill it there. And if they can do it in other countries, there's no reason why we can't be doing it here and reducing the amount of packaging or the ridiculous amount of packaging or fresh fruit and vegetables. But it's the same we were saying about it being elitist being like 8 a bar. It is on fresh vegetables. And anything that is a fresh food compared to something that is a mass-produced, you know, box of food, that's always going to be more expensive to eat healthily. And that's, it all comes down to the same mindset. I think that the companies that are supplying to us, it's that unless we do something to stop wholesale-- 

F11: I think on, on the note--

M6: You can't just fix one problem, you've got to fix all of it same time.

F11: On the note of taking your own pack, your own containers to supermarkets. I know for a while, certainly Morrison's and I think maybe some of the other supermarkets were allowing you to take your own containers for things like butcher's and fishmonger's. But then unfortunately, when the coronavirus pandemic started, they had to scrap all of that because they couldn't be sure of sanitisation. And even as things are now starting to, not exactly settle down, but seem to be vaguely improving, I've seen no indication that they're starting that back up again. So I, I don't know if that whole programme has now just been scrapped, or whether it will return later when it feels safe to do so, but... It would be a terrible shame if they basically used the pandemic as an excuse to get rid of it. 

M6: I guess it needs consumers to start knocking on the, on the windows and asking for it back. 

F11: Yeah.

M6: Every week going in and going, "can we take this yet?" Until they eventually say yes.

<Facilitator: I have something interesting on that to show you a bit later. But thank you very much, that's been a really interesting insight into plastics and your thoughts on plastics. I have a couple of photos that I'd like to show you if that's okay, to get your views on those specifically. So I'm just going to share my screen. Also, just because there's a bit of echoing sometimes, if you're not speaking, could you keep your microphone on mute, and then just unmute when you want to speak. That would be great. Thank you, just because I noticed there was a little bit of reverb there. So I'll just share my screen and show you some pictures. [shows Image 1] So I don't know if you've seen this. You might have seen this in Ocado or I think Waitrose they also sell them. It's a packet of cherry tomatoes and on the front it says 'Natoora', that's the brand name, and then it says, "this film is 100% plastic free" and then it's got the product name, which is these tomatoes in this case. So that's the front of the packaging. This is the side [shows Image 2]. And this is the back [shows Image 3]. So as you can see there, it's got some information about how to how to handle it.>

M7: It says it's not yet recycled. For the film. 

F13: Is it compostable? Is it the plant cellulose stuff?

F12: Yeah, it says, "think of this film wrap as orange peel, put it in your food waste bin, not your recycling bin". 

F13: Right. 

F12: Similar to the Boots, I think Boots do their prescriptions in a similar plastic now.

<Facilitator: Yep. So my my question to you is, what do you make of this? You know, is this something that you would see and think about buying? Would it influence your decision to buy it or not buy it? What, what do you make of this kind of plastic-free packaging?>

F10: Quite a lot of magazines, now, come in potato starch packaging don't they? So, some of the magazines I get come in that. Erm, to be honest, it wouldn't necessarily be the plastic packaging that I would look at first, if it's in a box, it'll be where it came from. So erm, I try not to, and I don't go to supermarkets very often anyway, because I try and use the local shops we've got. But I try and work out whether things have been flown in, what the carbon footprint is, erm so-- I'm sorry, I've got a very dong-y clock. I was going to turn it off. Erm, so I probably start looking at where it came from as the first thing, rather than whether it was in plastic or not.

M6: My experience would be completely the opposite, actually. My wife and I have a tendency to look at the packaging first. She, there are a lot of things that she won't buy, erm, because it's in plastic, or she'll go, "No, there's too much packaging in that", like, I don't get to eat chocolate croissants anymore, because they're individually wrapped inside the packaging. And we don't buy individual bags of crisps anymore, because there's too much packaging. Well, if we're going to buy crisps for the kids, we'll buy one of those great big grab bags and we'll, then we'll split it out and give them a little bit each time just to try and reduce the amount of packaging that we use. I mean, things like, erm, where it comes from and that we pay attention to most of the time, but you know, the packaging tends to be the first thing, and we genuinely try and reduce the amount of waste that we have. 

<Facilitator: Yep. [M5]?>

M5: Yeah, thank you. Just a little bit of advice, go to Lidl for your croissants, they are fantastic, and they're all individual and you can take your own bag, and--

M6: Erm, we do shop at Lidl, and their chocolate croissants are individually wrapped with inside a larger plastic bag. The normal croissants are, are not individually wrapped but the chocolate ones are.

M5: I, all right, I stand corrected. Look, I didn't [inaudible] the chocolate ones I thought if the ordinary ones are... have an ordinary one with some chocolate. Anyway, erm, my--

M6: Yeah, no, we do, but yeah--

M5: My view of this packaging is, is gimmicky. What else does that store sell of a, of an equal packaging standard? Are they all packaged in that way? That's the first comment. The second comment is: I spoke to a Waitrose manager and he talked, we've been discussing providing articles without packaging at all so that we could just collect them. He said that the customers he's got are so difficult, there are about eight different types of tomatoes that they would want to choose from. So he, you know, the best thing to do there is just to have either all the tomatoes the same price, erm, you know, certain groups, and others easily, easily recognisable. I mean, people have got to just say, "I want tomatoes, I'm not, I don't want these particular tomatoes, I want tomatoes, tasty tomatoes". And that should do for us. We shouldn't be all finickity about eight different types or 12 different types of tomato in a shop. Go for the big ones, or the small ones, or the tasty ones, and the the cashier should be able to recognise them as they come through. And while I... Yeah, that's, that's, I've got something else to show you later actually.

<Facilitator: Okay. Well, yes, the question is, is between, if you see something, the same product, but there's this packaging versus some other packaging. [participant hands raised] So we've got, I'll go with [F13] and then [F11] and then [F12], I was gonna say [name] then, yeah. [F13] then [F11] and then [F12].>

F13: Erm so yes, I was going to say something similar in that I feel like it is gimmicky. I find a lot of shops are doing this. They just have like, one option where there's like no plastic in the packaging, it's their like kind of token gesture to do something to show they're making an effort. But personally, if I saw two identical products and one was obviously had no plastic that I would go for that one for that reason. But then again, cost does come into it and it is ridiculously more then I wouldn't because it can't afford it. It's just how it is. But if I had the choice I would, but... Also the chocolate croissants, that is something that I stopped doing as well, because I always used to do it, it's like our weekend treat. We used to have chocolate croissants, and then I realised how much pa-- erm, so we now get the ones that you sort of like make in the oven that are just like, all ready to go. Bit less packaging, that's our little weekend treat.

M5: (laughs)

<Facilitator: Yep, I agree, I love those. [F11].>

F11: Er, [F13] has almost made my point for me in regards to price, and that unfortunately, it does often seem to be the more expensive brands that are able to take on the, either the plastic-free packaging or the sort of pseudo-plastic... I don't know if that's just because of the cost of production for this packaging, whether that means it prices the cheaper brands out or if they just don't want to do it for whatever reason, but, again, it is, it does make it really impossible for people on lower incomes to avoid plastic unless you have the time to go and round several different shops to get everything you want individually. And that's, again, if the shops exist locally to you like having a greengrocers or local bakers. Unfortunately, a lot have gone under during the last year. It's a trade-off of time versus money. And some people don't really have a lot of either to be able to avoid plastic completely.

<Facilitator: Yeah. Thank you. So [F12], and then [M7].>

F12: Mine's more of a statement, erm, or a question even, has anyone seen a comedian called Rhod Gilbert ranting about a jacket potato? 

M6: Yes. 

F12: Yes. [Facilitator], if you haven't seen it, you do need to watch it. Basically, he, his whole, I don't know, 20-minute comedic rant is about the fact that a) he only wanted to buy one jacket potato and they came in packs of two, and b) that erm, he had had no choice that it was on styrofoam tray wrapped in plastic, and it's like, it's a potato, it lives underground, does not really need to be on a styrofoam tray wrapped in plastic, it's fairly hardy, you know, etc, etc. So I kind of guess that whenever I'm sort of faced with fresh foods, I kind of wish that they weren't necessitating a packet in the first place. Like, I do understand the reason behind it. But you know, I would prefer that they didn't have any packet for me to be considering at all.

M6: I think for packaging, that's er, for fruits and vegetables that are coming from local, from the UK, or a fairly close country, plastic packaging is definitely unnecessary. I kind of understand when they're bringing stuff in from, er, far away, because it's got he's got a much larger journey. But then my question would be, do we really need it if it's coming from that far away? Kind of weigh it up at that point, you know, should we just be keeping food local, simply because it's, you know, a low, lower carbon emissions, and it means that it doesn't have to stay, nothing has to be done to keep it fresh for that long. But, yeah--

<Facilitator: Thank you. [participant hands raised] Er, [M7] and then [F13].>

M7: I think my, my point's kind of been made, it was combination of what [F13] and [F11] have said that actually, one of the points we're going to draw on is, it's not just a case of what if you're er, cash-poor, but also time-poor is a factor too. So in terms of, if you're going to pick this, for example, whatever you're picking, it has to be simple for a consumer, if that makes sense. So if you go into a supermarket, if you have that luxury in terms of time of being able to go to the supermarket, if you are confronted by, you know, to [M5]'s point, eight different varieties of tomatoes in front of you all in plastic packaging, you know, do you have the time to pick each one up and say, "Well, these tomatoes were grown in the UK, so that's good from an environmental perspective, but they don't have biodegradable plastic. So I'll put those down and pick up the next ones and find the same information", etc, etc. That's a lot to do for a whole shop, for example. So it almost needs to be sort of the default, which is to have corn-based or starch-based packaging, because if you haven't got the time to be able to actually do that check, how are you, how are you going to do that? So I myself would like to go to, I'd like to go to a baker's. I'd like to get to a greengrocer's... but I genuinely, genuinely struggle to find the time, working sort of 50 to 60 hours a week, and dealing with sort of family life around that, if that makes sense. So, for me, the answer is make it default, but that comes with its own challenges. If you are a small producer, the costs of transitioning to this sort of stuff could be quite prohibitive. So, you know, it's, I think it's a combination thing. We need to do it, producers need to do it. But actually, how are we going to help those who need the help to transition to it to do that? Erm, I don't think it's an easy, it's an easy thing to solve. But if I was in a shop, and I was looking for tomatoes, and I had the time, and the money, and I saw this versus another one, I would potentially pick this product, for environmental reasons.

<Facilitator: Thank you. Erm, yeah, [F13], and then [M5].>

F13: Yes, similarly from that, really, it's just what I was just gonna say, it's really hard, 'cause it's like, we've got to backtrack, really. We've made life so fast that everyone's always on the go permanently. And, just, for me myself, it's hard to, you have to assume that you'll be doing everything, with like getting everything ready with your children, like, doing your work, getting your house ready, and just, now, now it's like another thing to remember, another thing to do. And they've made life too convenient in a way, even, like, as we were talking about with the chocolate croissants, it's so easy just to have that in ready-made packaging, that now, even now it's like (laughs) my husband's like, "Oh, why don't we just get the ready-made ones", 'cause, 'cause it is just so much easier, it's one less thing to have to do. And the fact that we want to try and do it with everything in our life... I'm trying to convince my mom to stop using wipes, like for all of her cleaning stuff, or at least get biodegradable wipes. But really, better just to not have wipes, and I even bought like a duster, like just to use around. But it, it's hard, like you said, it's just untraining everything that we've now been doing for the last however many years. It's difficult.

M5: Is it me next?

<Facilitator: Yes, go ahead.>

M5: Er, [M7], I like your concept of buying tomatoes. I, I don't think people would look at that little bit on the back, they look at the tomato. And they say, "I want those tomatoes". And in Tesco, you can have a little zapper where you can collect loose, erm, fruit, veg in places, tiny amount. And then you go and weight it up on the scale. And you say what, what it is, you identify it, and then it goes through and you er, you get checked every so often. But otherwise, it's down to you. And the thing about the ready meals that you mentioned, erm, the aisles of fresh produce are getting smaller and smaller. The aisles of ready meals are getting bigger and bigger. And it's all one big push, the new houses you can find, the kitchens are getting smaller and smaller. Some of them don't have an oven in them, they have a microwave. And when people go home and say I'm going to cook tonight, what they mean is they're going to get a thing out the freezer, stick it in the microwave for 20 minutes and eat that. So the push is away from raw materials like fruit and veg, and on to ready meals and you know, and all the social problems, the impact that's got on our health and what have you. So I'm sorry to be negative (laughs) I'm going to switch off my mic now.

<Facilitator: No. Thank you. Okay, [F10], [M6] and then [F11]. Thank you.>

F10: Well, I think there's a whole lot of de-skilling going on now when it comes to things like prepping fresh food and cooking. I help run a school garden club. And as part of that, once a term we pick something out of the garden and then we go away and cook it from scratch. But even when talking to the staff and discussing what the children are growing, the skillset now to cook a meal from scratch is diminishing. It's just, it's just, and it, and it feels like it's hard work. Because if you don't know how to do something it's quite scary and it feels like hard work. Whereas if you've always cooked, it isn't hard work once you know what you're doing and you can easily make a batch of something to freeze. So you've got your freezer meal, but you've made it from scratch. But the skillset, one of the things we're looking at in the area we're in now is getting a lot more community gardens going, a bit like Incredible Edibles in Todmorden, but also trying to get cooking classes going as well, because the allotment I have runs next to a footpath. And the number of discussions I have with children and the parents about what it is I'm growing or, or having a fresh pea or whether the things on the wall are loganberries or raspberries or whatever... Erm, the skillset to cook from fresh now is just plummeting. So it isn't just whether this stuff is available, it's whether you actually know what to do with it when you buy it.

<Facilitator: Great, thank you, [M6]. Oh, I think you're on mute.>

M6: Oh, yeah, there we go. I feel like I'm a bit of a renegade now, because we're actually in the process of buying a couple of acres of land to start a smallholding on to sell fruit and veg locally. So, but I don't think, I understand what you're saying [F10], I don't think the these problems are irreversible, though, you know. It's, certainly we can, we can teach people how to cook and we can cook better and we can... People, we just need to get people to kind of vote with their feet on how they want their houses to be or how they want their, their lives to be. But, yeah, or teach children so that, you know, they, they enjoy cooking, or they enjoy growing things more. I mean, it might, it's... maybe for our generations or for even the people younger than me, erm, younger than you guys 'cause most of you look like, some of you look like you're younger than I am, erm, I don't, I think even then when you're kind of used to having everything fast and having everything convenient that there is a market to be tapped into there that you can, you can almost psychologically trick people into thinking that this is, growing for themselves and cooking for themselves is almost, is the in thing to do and get people back into it that way. Yeah. So it doesn't just have to be we, we show our children how to do it but we're still living in the fast lane. We have to be able to do it as well.

<Facilitator: Yep. Okay. So [F11], and then [F12], and then [M7], and then we'll, we'll move on from this topic. So [F11].>

F11: So, yes, I completely agree with the points about the, the ready meals, and erm, even not necessarily knowing how to cook or not feeling competent cooking, there's, there's also an argument people who just simply don't have necessarily the facilities to cook. Erm, you know, we've seen a massive rise in food banks. And unfortunately, a lot of people who are receiving food parcels from them are reporting also not having enough money to have the electricity running to be able to use an oven, a hob. So they're needing things that could be eaten cold or with minimal preparation, and they are largely all plastic-wrapped. And unfortunately, I don't think that can necessarily be solved that easily. And there's also another issue with the ready meals again, people who can't cook because of, say, a disability, those who either need to get, those who maybe can cook a little bit that would need adaptations such as pre-chopped onions which come wrapped in plastic, because, say, they don't have the fine motor skills to chop onions themselves. Or those who are completely dependent on something like Wiltshire Farm Foods, which is going to all be delivered in plastic. And I don't unfortunately think that necessarily improving cooking skills is going to fix problems like that. I think we do need to be looking at alternative packaging. But again, I don't know what the cost would be to the companies and whether that is feasible.

M6: How do we feel about bulk packaging? Where, I mean, 'cause we're quite fortunate that we have access to places like Costco, which I know everybody doesn't have access to, but the ability to buy something that's going to last you a year in a container rather than something that you're going to run out of that week or that day. Like we buy garlic, crushed garlic, but it makes sense to buy it because we've got it in a container that's a litre big and we only use a spoonful of it at a time and the stuff doesn't go off, no matter what they put on the 'use by' or the 'best by' date, it's lasted us a year. Not a problem. So, I wonder if we were able to make that more of an option for people where being able to buy stuff that they can bulk buy that would, that would normally last a while. And that, you know, they have a decent, decent or better containers that once you've locked them and you close them, you can potentially be able to suck the air back out of it and make it a sealed container again, make it last longer is, you know, is an option there. So, instead, you know, you can do it with all sorts of things, even like baked beans, as long as you've got the ability to once you've opened it, and you've used some of it, that you can seal it back up and then vacuum seal it again, which wouldn't take very long, then that might be an option to reduce the amount of plastic that is on a shelf, erm--

<Facilitator: That's a good point. And we'll, we'll come to, to bulk, actually, in a little bit. I just wanted to hear these final thoughts from [F12] and [M7], on this topic. And then and then we'll move on. So [F12], and then [M7].>

F12: I guess mirroring a little bit of what [F11]'s saying, like, I've worked a lot with the, the vulnerable, the homeless, the drug addicts, the foster care kids, the, you know, social service system and stuff like that. And what all of our suggestions are absolutely fantastic, but they are so not inclusive of everybody else in this world. And I, you know, we're all white, we all have the money to buy technology, in a sense that we're on this digital call. We all look like we're at home. So we all look like we've got a home, firstly, and we've got internet at our homes. And, you know, if you have a choice of, okay, right, I'm homeless, I'm gonna have this sandwich given to me by this person out of a shop, and it's going to be in plastic, but I'm not going to turn that down because I need to eat today. So I just think that it, you know, in a perfect world, great. But I think there's needing to be more thinking outside of the box to in, to cater for absolutely everybody. And Covid has really highlighted all of the divides in our society, whether it's digital inclusion, or poverty, or transport, you know. I don't, you know, I actually abhor Costco and wouldn't, wouldn't go there. And I do have a car, but you can only buy in bulk if you've got a car and to have a car, you've gotta have money, and then to have a car, you gotta have money to run it. It's not just the upfront costs, it's the insurance, it's this, that and the other. So, it, I don't know. The answer isn't simple. And it also needs to include everybody in our society, not just the affluent white people.

<Facilitator: Thank you. And, finally, [M7].>

M7: It's, I mean, it's very quick. As [F12] basically made the point, it's, there's so many different users with different needs that we need to think about. Erm, and there'll be different reasons why people don't do it, you know, I've mentioned time-poor, some people won't cook from scratch because they feel like they don't have the time and no amount of saying, you know, "you can make a pasta carbonara in ten minutes" is necessarily going to change the way that someone thinks about how much time they have. So, you know, it's a combination of everything that everyone has said, stuff needs to be done. But, you know, [F12] to your point, there are so many people out there who, we might not have experience of their needs, erm, you need to think about everyone's needs. Which kind of pushes back to, maybe we need to find a way of doing something by default. If that makes sense.

<Facilitator: Great, thank you. This has been a really interesting discussion about plastics. And I think there's been a lot of discussion about systemic issues and the individual. And I think this is all really relevant to what we're looking at. I'd just like to move on to the topic of reuse now if that's okay, so I'm going to stop sharing this. So, just like before, I have a big question for you about this, which is: what does reuse mean to you? So if you hear 'reuse' or 'reusable', you know, what, what comes to mind in that case?>

M6: Yeah, [M7] is just holding up his bottle. It's that kind of thing. It's, it's having a container that can be used over and over and over again without deteriorating. So, I think there are some plastics that you can't do that with 'cause they stain or they start to break down and, you know, in some cases, the plastics aren't the best solution for that and glass is a better solution for containing stuff. But yeah, it has to be something that can last more than one use, but usually it's not just, you can't just be like two or three uses. It's got to be something that you can use weekly, monthly, yearly. And it's, it's there, and it's your go-to thing and you know, you don't start to see it, see the cracks in it for years.

<Facilitator: Yep. [M5]?>

M6: You're on mute, [M5].

M5: I thought I'd switched... I've got a rubbish, erm, mouse. Sorry about that. For me, reuse is anything that's not plastic. So for example, I'm in charge of not just [anti-plastic group name], but [pro-refill group name]. And that's to do with the app, and the refillable bottle and refill stations where you can go with your bottle to go and reuse, er, reuse it time, time, time again, so we've got a campaign to never buy a plastic bottle of water again, in our town. We want visitors to do that as well. So for me, that's the er, that's it. I mean, reusable, repurposing, if you thought about plastics is sort of repurposing, changing something into something else, like park benches, or some other object, which is okay, but then you can't reuse that again, because apparently, the polymer is far too complicated in those things to be able to reuse again. So it erm, it's a sort of cascading thing, which doesn't, doesn't leave much. So for me, plastic reuse is so fringe miniscule, that it's a gimmick if it's been used at all by companies. So that's, that's my answer. So you really do use non-plastics to reuse stuff.

<Facilitator: Interesting. I think it was [M7] next, and then [F12] and then [F11].>

M7: So I think, for me, reusable doesn't mean forever, necessarily. So for example, I have a reusable coffee cup that's made of bamboo fibre, I think from memory. So I know eventually, that's probably going to be beyond use but, in my mind, like a relatively uneducated mind when it comes to reusing things, that's better than, you know, disposable coffee cups you get from somewhere. It doesn't, it doesn't mean permanent, although permanent would be ideal. But for me, it's, it's sort of, something I can reuse a number of times before it ultimately has to be disposed of which should be environmentally friendly when it comes to disposal.

<Facilitator: Great, so [F12], [F11] and then [F13].>

F12: Kind of mirroring [M7] sentiments to be honest with you is that eventually it will have to be disposed off because it can't, a plastic drinks bottle that you've put washing up liquid in is not going to last indefinitely. But again, with the inclusivity, I know I harped on about it but you got to have somewhere to put those things, you know, and if you're not in a permanent residence or you've not got space for anything but a bed, then you're not going to be focusing on "oh I'm gonna keep this plastic bottle so I can put such and such in it", so it, it's a great plaster but it's not you know, it's not going to fix the whole issue.

<Facilitator: Yep. Thank you, so [F11] and then [F13] I think.>

F11: So I think with reuse there's a degree of creativity that can come into play sometimes when you, when you have items that have seemingly only had one use. For example you get a yoghurt pot or a plastic tray. Now I have a habit of poking holes at the bottom of them, filling them with compost and using them for seedlings, rather than buy a plant pot or propagate a new... erm, I think we've, similarly, my, my mum, who used to be a primary school teacher, she would save up bits and bobs for kids to be able to use in crafts. I think we've almost forgotten how to repurpose things sometimes. I don't know whether it's just something we sort of lose as we get older and have to find it again. But I think there is a tendency to look at an item and go, "well that's just rubbish now" without considering if there's a way to salvage it. 

<Facilitator: Yeah, go ahead, [F13].>

F13: Yeah, I actually completely agree, [F11], I think that's a really good point is that people... the point I was gonna make was somebody that, so I used to work at a school and erm, in the office, and, as much as I could, I would try and reuse things, erm, whether it be pencils, moving on from one class to the next, folders, once they've had like stickers down them, I'd rip them off and put stickers over the top and then write them and reuse them. But then there were certain people in the school, sort of, at one point the head of school and the business manager that told me I had to redo it all. And they bought all new folders, because they wanted it to look pretty. And I was like [inaudible] and I just thought it was so ridiculous and new, like, Polly pockets, the plastic things, because some of them were creased up, and I was like, but it still does the job, it's fine. So they threw, honestly, you know, like this much away of old... 'cause some of them were crumpled up and, but just slightly but still usable, but they didn't look pretty. So they got rid of them. And they bought all new ones and I was... it's just people have a really wasteful mindset. And it's just frustrating that that's how society and how a lot of people think and it's the... the thing I was thinking about earlier was when I went to erm, before Covid, a party, and I wore a dress, and it was a dress that I'd worn to a wedding like two years before. And they were like, "oh, I've seen that dress before, could you not afford something new?" And it's like, well no, it's a dress, and I like it, and, you know, I want to wear it again. But it's seen as you know, "oh, you can't afford a new one". It's just a ridiculous mindset that unfortunately, whatever amount of our society has, that we should have something new all the time. And if you're not, then you're either failing, or yeah, or you're different. And it's just very frustrating and bad, in my opinion.

<Facilitator: Yeah. Okay, just two more minutes on this because there's something I really need to show you before the end. So, I think it was [M6]. And then [M5] and then [F12]. Oh, you're on mute.>

M6: It's alright, I said, I'll just let you continue, carry on. 

<Facilitator: Yeah, well if you want to hold that thought until afterwards, because then we can, we can carry on discussing this as well. [M5] was there something you wanted to add on this one?>

M5: There's three things. We've got fishing net, discarded fishing net, in Cornwall, that a company's gonna turn into refill stations for us. So the plastic that is discarded fishing net is going to be a useful project. And compared to the ones we're just buying at the moment from America, the carbon footprint is low as well. So that's one thing. Crisp packets into blankets, that's another campaign we've got here. Clean crisp packets are being collected to turn into blankets for homeless people. And erm, well, there's other things as well, but let me leave it at that, those two.

<Facilitator: Great. And [F12] was there something?>

F12: It's only a little thing but like, there's a garden, front garden near me somewhere where you have to walk, you know, it's on the main road, and they've used plastic bottles to separate their produce. So they're growing vegetables in their garden, they use plastic bottles as, and I totally understand where they're going, like their meaning behind it. But I find it so upsetting literally seeing plastic in the ground. I find it so upsetting. Like I totally understand that they're trying to reuse those bottles, but it's in the ground--

M6: [inaudible]

F12: And I just, I just find that really upsetting.

<Facilitator: What was that, [M6], did you say?>

M6: They're probably reusing them as cloches, because they--

F12: Yeah. Yeah.

M6: They're good for propagating seedlings underneath and keeping them protected from animals and it produces a wet environment that actually works really well for them, so.

F12: Yeah, no, I get it, it's just they're not, you know, if they're, when they've done being cloches, are they gonna take them out, wash them and put them in a recycling bin, you know, just the ground and the earth cannot process that invader as it were. And it just, it's a really poignant demonstration--

M6: The plastic's probably not breaking down that much in the soil, to be honest. It takes, you know, 100 to 500 years for that plastic to--

F12: Well this is my point, if they don't take off those plastic bottles out of their front garden and wash them and put them in the recycling bin, 150 years later, someone's going to be doing their archaeology in the suburbs of Cardiff and be like, "Oh, why is all these plastic bottles in the ground" 'cause they're still gonna be there.

F11: They most likely will get taken away when the plant gets big enough and then I imagined they'd just be washed and then reused again next year when they're growing something else. They're, they're really only a temporary measure.

F12: I hope so.

F11: And it's probably better than buying a plastic cloche new, which would probably invariably be packaged in plastic itself.

M6: It has, even if you buy a glass one, it's still less embodied energy into reusing a coke bottle to use as a cloche than it is to go and buy yourself a new glass cloche. Because, you know, a glass cloche is also more difficult to store because there's more danger of it being broken, either by leaving it outside in the winter and it can crack or by leaving it in the greenhouse and knocking into it. So, erm, and we certainly use, any plastic bottles that we use in our garden, erm, we, we put it in the greenhouse for the next year and bring it back out again. But I get your point. Erm, you know, that you would be nice if if there was never any plastic ever, but plastic does have its place. And in some respects, it is, it's the best material to use, it's the disposal of it that that needs the work rather than the use that it's being put to.

<Facilitator: Yeah, I think it's interesting about what you're saying just about the emotional reaction you know that you have just seeing it in the in the ground. I think that that's, that's really interesting. Okay, so I just have, it's the last thing I need to show you, a couple of very short videos, and this ties into a little bit what we've been talking about with refill and bulk. So let me just share, if I can share the tab, and I hope you can see that okay. [shows Video 1] Okay, and there's just one more. This is from the same, er, same supermarket, which if you haven't guessed yet is Asda. This is Asda in Middleton in Leeds. It's a TikTok so it's super short. [shows Video 2] Okay. Um, yeah, so what do you make of this? Have you used something like this? Would you use something like this? What, what do you think about it? Yeah, [F11].>

F11: I kind of have mixed feelings about this. I like that the the refill is becoming more accessible and widespread in a way but at the same time, I, I worry about supermarkets jumping on the bandwagon and then crowding out all the little indie refill shops that have popped up because if if people can go to Asda and do this, why would you go to your local community refill shop that is never gonna pull in as much money as a big supermarket and really needs the support? I mean, I would do that because, you know, I know the lady who runs my local shop and I have that rapport with her, and I want to support her, but for most people, if they're going around Asda doing the rest of the groceries anyway, they're not then going to go somewhere else for their refills. So it's, it's a bit of a double edged sword. 

<Facilitator: Yeah, thank you. I think it's [F12] and then [F10] next.>

F12: Same as [F11], mixed, mixed feelings, but not those exact thoughts. Like my, I grew up in West Wales, and we had to drive 30 minutes to find a supermarket. Erm, so it kind of is great, I think maybe in a city kind of environment, erm, then, fantastic. But it again, is not all inclusive, relies on knowledge of a computer, or how to use a touchscreen device and stuff like that, you know, I do you find the older generation, I'm not, not sort of blanket approach. But my granddad for example, he probably wouldn't want to use a machine like that. And I think it could be quite intimidating, and would put people off using a machine like that, you know. If there was a person there that whole time, then fine, but it's kind of going down that automated route, I think is, is cutting off a very large chunk of society. But I do like the fact that it is in a mainstream shop, you know? And yes, I know you've got your independents, and I think they are, they are always going to survive, because they're going to have your diehard followers like yourself, [F11], and you know, I go to two local refill shops, and they are going to have those, but it's an education thing, you know, that person is more likely to go to Asda and get the education that refill is a thing, then go down their local High Street and, and see it and think "oh, yeah, I can add that into my lifestyle". So yeah, like a mixed, mixed thoughts on it.

<Facilitator: Yep. I think [F10] and then [M7].>

F10: I think I have mixed thoughts as well. Erm, I think it would make access greater for a larger proportion of people, not everybody, but that goes with anything that you do, you have to start somewhere. From my point of view, I probably wouldn't use it because I think then what you're doing is buying into the big companies who are still trashing the planet. And they're not actually changing their overall ethos, they're just in it for the money. So they're not in it because they think it's going to make the world a better place, Unilever or whoever are not going to be in it because they're going to alter how they produce things, they're not necessarily going to alter how they treat the people who are producing whatever. So I personally wouldn't use it. Erm, because I think, and I'm in a position to be able to make that choice, that I don't buy that stuff anyway. So if I was gonna go refill, I wouldn't be refilling from a Unilever. Because it's basically them cashing in, driving all the other brands out that may actually have more ethics, more social awareness, more planetary awareness. And you're back in the same position again, with the big companies just bullying the smaller companies or taking them over. So that, you know, the things that you think were okay are now owned by much bigger companies, you've just got them as a sort of sideline, but have not changed any of the ethics, social awareness of the company at all.

<Facilitator: Thanks, [F10]. Erm, [M7]?>

M7: Yeah, it's kind of a again, it's a combination of what's already been said. I think, to some extent, it's a great idea. And the reason I say it's a great idea is because I moved to where I currently live last August, and before that, my day consisted of waking up at five o'clock, and getting home at seven o'clock in the evening, five days a week. So those five days a week needing to go to a shop to get something I'd love to go and refill from a local refill shop, or I would have loved to have gone and refilled from a local retail shop. But it was shut by the time I got home. So bearing in mind, the length of the commute, the length of the working day, by the time I got to the local high street, the only thing that was open was the Tesco Express. So there's the challenge of can I get to it, you know, [F12] to your point, if you've got to drive half an hour to get to the supermarket in the first place... is it easy to do? But that said, it's obviously important that we do something to reduce plastic, single plastic use, and something like this probably is a step in the right direction. Although to [F10]'s point, I wouldn't use it because I'd be sceptical about the motives of the people behind it, to have companies who for 30, 40 or more years have been saying, you know, single-use plastic is great, suddenly be saying, now we all need to do our bit to sort of stop using it, is a bit like, nah, come on, really, pull the other one. Erm, so, yeah, it's complex. But I think in terms of making difference and actually addressing the problem of single-use plastic, if you've got a solution that makes it easy-ish and quick-ish to, to refill and not have to use single-use plastic that should probably be explored. It's something to be applauded, I think.

<Facilitator: Great, thank you. I think we have [F13] next and then [M5].>

F13: Okay, erm, I'm not sure how popular this is gonna make me (laughs) I think it's a really great idea. I completely agree with what everyone's been saying, about sort of little indie shops but I think the people that are currently going there are probably still gonna go there, because they have the time and the money and the want to go there. I think the big problem, as we've all been saying, we know that there's people, I suppose, like us, I'm saying this because of the fact that we're all taking part in this, that do care already, and are gonna, gonna make the effort. But there's so many people that don't have the time, money, whatever reason, they're not making the effort to recycle, to reuse. So we need to kind of tackle that. And there's always gonna be negatives, to any kind of solution that's found. But to me, I think this is a big positive, because it will be aimed at them people and it will make it convenient. So if they haven't got enough time, that, that time that's eliminated is making it cheap, it's making it sort of a similar price to what it already is, it's eliminating that of you know, if they haven't got enough money. So to me, it ticks a lot of them boxes. And in a perfect world, I think little indie shops, little family run places would be lovely. But in a realistic world, in my view, I think this is one of the best answers we could hope for really, to make it accessible for a higher group of people. And I suppose I agree with what everyone's saying about the companies as well. But I'm just trying to think of it as they're gonna get money no matter what they do. They're gonna, they're gonna make, it's a business, they're gonna... no matter their reasoning behind it, whether they're doing it for the right reasons or not, it's still going to have the right solution, a better solution, in my opinion.

<Facilitator: Thank you. Er, [M5]?>

M5: Well, I see it as a positive move as well, [F13], but not quite in the same way as you. It is, I mean, I'm not arguing against you at all. But I mean, three years ago, let's say, we wouldn't be having a meeting like this. Three years ago, nobody would be talking about refillable. Well, some, some people would. I mean, I'm a retired teacher, and I was teaching about this sort of thing, environmental behaviour and, and sustainability since the 60s. I started teaching in 1969. So but most people wouldn't have had a meeting like this, most people wouldn't, wouldn't think about plastic renewing and recycling and so on. So I think this is another element in raising the visibility of the problem. The more people that do this, that use that, the more people that do refillable water, the more people that reject different single-use is generating erm, a revolution, if you like, of people who care and who are feeling more and more mobilised to do something about it. They're feeling more and more... I mean, there are people who have gone into companies as directors, and they've changed the ethos of those companies by joining as directors, which is a, that's a really sharp end to make changes. So that's what I see as er, as helpful in this initiative. Having said that, the high street is changing massively, and these little corner shops are disappearing. It's good that one of you is setting up an allotment or a market garden to produce material. But most people I think are much happier to press a few buttons and get it delivered. How easy is that? Who cares? Let's just get a few items delivered. And there's your job done, your half an hour, and it's going to all come and you stick in the freezer and off you go. That is unfortunately I think the atmosphere of many people in our country and other countries too. We've got to try and counteract that but it's tough.

M6: I was gonna say the thing that everyone that wants to, to improve this has to remember, is that it's an iterative process and as much as that is annoying to absolutely everybody, erm, if you're not used to dealing in iterative processes, then it can be very frustrating 'cause you want to have the perfect solution, now. You want to go, "Okay, I wanna reject that idea because I can see a negative and that we shouldn't do that we should do this". But for this thing, we might not be ready for, emotionally, mentally, have the technology to cope with it, to do it, you have to go through the iterative process and the, what you may have to do is go "Okay, so yeah, we know some people aren't going to use this because they're, their ethics won't allow it, they don't want to use a Unilever product", I get that, do you know what I mean. But for the vast majority of people who don't think like that, for the people who want to press a button and have something within 30 minutes turn up at their door, you have to give them a way. And then once you've got them on that way, you can then educate them once they've got there. And then you can give them another bit, and then another bit, and you can gradually remove that plastic from them, you can gradually remove the single-use plastic from them, you can get them thinking, "well, I've just gone and gotten rid of all of this plastic, and now I'm saving loads of money this way, is there another way I can save money, oh, look, I can go and do something with solar panels, or I can go do something with this". And as you make these things more accessible to people a bit at a time, you will gradually lead them on. Nobody will ever, it's one of those psychological things that if you dump something in front of someone, and it's big, and go, "okay, you can't use any single plastics, single-use plastics anymore, you've now got to use this thing", people recoil from it, because everybody wants to use what is familiar to them. So you have to sneak in the familiar or introduce things in small steps. And that way, you get the buy in from people because people begin to own that and they begin to get it, they begin to feel that sense of superiority that comes with buying something that has that green label on it, or has that, you know, that kudos attached to it. And, and that's how we'll get people to make their consumer, those consumer changes that we need them to make to use the products that are available or that haven't even been invented yet. Engineers and designers are working on things all of the time and not everything makes it to market because there is somebody in a grey suit telling them, "No, I'm not going to do that". But they keep trying and they keep bringing their stuff to market hoping that somebody will pick it up. And sometimes you have to make it for people that have all of the money, you have to be the one that goes, "Okay, take my product, take my idea, make it happen in all of your, all of these stores" so that once it becomes available in that store, then the companies that rejected them before go, "hang on a minute, that's not doing well, we're now gonna have to make a product like that". And they will make something that's similar. And then that will disseminate out and make it easier for other people to have access to it. But it all has to start at one, one node and then it filters out. And it all has to start with a couple of things and then filter out. It will never be "how can we fix this? How can we fix this now?" It's "how can we take the next step? How can we make it easier?" And then you'll get to the point where it's inclusive, and it's cheaper, and it's better for the environment, and we start seeing less plastic in the oceans. And then people don't bother sticking the, you know, their crisp wrappers and stuff in other people's allotment bin. But it, it will all start with a small thing. And then you have to work out where the nodes are and how to get out to them.

<Facilitator: Yep. Absolutely. I think we have [F11] waiting and then [M7].>

F11: Yeah, on the erm, there's been a lot of very good points of, just making sure that you know, a step is taken, so I you know, I've sort of (laughs) reevaluated my opinion on the, on the refill machines there, they probably are better than I was giving them credit for. And I do, I understand the argument of needing to do things gradually to make to make it more practical for people to integrate things into their lives, 'cause to try and cut out all unnecessary plastics effectively cold turkey would be so incredibly difficult for most people, I think it is impossible. But then, unfortunately, the flip side of that, and I'm going to be a bit of a Debbie Downer here is... how much time do we have to delay? You know, if we keep saying, "we need to take this slowly", well, climate change is still marching on and if we're not acting fast enough, it could well get to a point where then nothing we do is going to make much of a difference. It's, it's really hard and it's, it's a bit of a heartbreaking realisation and I know I feel a lot of personal guilt, perhaps slightly misplaced, that I feel like I'm not doing enough even if I know it's not practical for me to do any more, anything more. But it's, you know, how... So I understand wanting to implement change gradually but... How much can we afford to do that?

M6: I agree with you. I don't think that it's, you necessarily have to take it gradually in terms of time, you just have to break it down into enough steps that people, that enough bite-sized pieces that somebody can swallow the bite-sized piece and then move on to the next one. And it doesn't necessarily have to be a five-year, ten-year, these things are taking for this to happen. It can happen quickly. But you just have to market it right. And if you get the marketing right, and you get... we, we see it all the time where something is not a fad for any time at all, and all of a sudden, something clicked and it becomes a fad. And then everybody's got it. We had the same with electric cars. Until Elon Musk got it right... We've had electric, we've had the ability to stick a solar panel on electric cars since the 1900s. We've had them stuck on planes since the 1900s as test cases, and they worked, but the market wasn't ready. So once you get to the point where the market is ready, and you can, and you, you get the marketing right, then you can start getting that to spill down into everybody else. And it goes a lot quicker. You just have to find that place where you can, you can poke hard enough. And I guess it's up to you know, for, for this focus group of people like [facilitator] who are trying to find where that poke point is, I guess it's the basis of everything that we're doing here. Where can, where can we find those points, there might not just be one, there might be two, but you've got to find, we'll eventually find where those places are and get, and maybe this, this thing in Asda's is one of those points, those nexuses where we can get that to start spilling down to other things. But I wouldn't, I wouldn't worry too much that it's gonna take ten years if there are people like us who are prepared to take action and prepared to help with that marketing and get it out there. You know, a few people can make that difference and they can, and they can make things move forward faster than they have been before. And, you know, be positive about it. You may find that you can be that person that helps bring that change about and make it happen faster.

<Facilitator: Yeah. Thank you, [M6]. I'm just conscious of time. So I'm just going to quickly come to [M7] and then [M5] has something he wants to mention as well.>

M7: Yeah, I was gonna say, mindful of time. So I'm gonna make hopefully two very quick points. It kind of builds on what, what you've said [M6] which is, erm, I work in financial services. So I'm quite interested in behavioural finance. And one of the guys who's particularly influential or interesting in behavioural finance circles is Richard Thaler, who wrote 'Nudge'. And he did this interview in the Financial Times, I think it was a couple of years ago, where he said, "People aren't dumb, the world is hard". And I think that's relevant when it comes to single-use plastics. I don't think if you got lots of people and lined them up in a line, and said, "Who here consciously wants to use single-use plastics, knowing it's bad for the planet?", I don't think many people are going to stick their hands up and say, "Yes, I buy single-use plastics, because I know it's bad for the environment". I don't think many people that sort of sadistic. But the reason they don't do it is because I think a lot of us have been making the point today, it does take more of a conscious effort to avoid it. So the more you can make things simple, the more people will do it. And [M6] to your point, there are steps you can take to get you... I saw a great picture on, on Facebook the other day of two people standing in front of two ladders, the top of the left ladder was 'net zero', and that was the first rung on the ladder, and they're looking at it going, "well how the bloody hell do I do that?" And on the other side, was, you know, little steps getting you there. And suddenly when you break it down, that way, you can see how much more achievable it is if we take little steps. And some of those little steps are going to be product manufacturers coming to us and saying, "we've made it easier for you" and some of it will be us moving in as well and saying, "we're gonna make changes ourselves". So, yeah. 

<Facilitator: Great, thank you. Er, [M5].>

M5: So mine's a massive (laughs) massive I'll, I'll concise, make it concise. Benign plastics don't exist. Benign plastics, I believe, the plastic producing companies know how to make, but they're blocking any, and they'll ridicule my idea, every step I'm taking. I'm setting up a lobbying campaign involving our primary schools, our MP, our local councillors, to lobby Parliament so that Parliament can legislate to companies or to science, er, science faculties to say, "make benign plastic". It's not polymers, it's plastic, that... so somebody chucking a bottle of coke out the window. You think, two problems: one, litter, two, that bottle's gonna stay in the environment forever. With benign plastics, you say, "Oh, that's litter". And that's all. Because that bottle then will have a lifespan in it, which will say after eight months it will deteriorate into material that will turn into soil or to, you know, benign particles, not stuff that will stay as a danger to the environment. It's a tough ask because they don't want, they wouldn't want to do it. But if we can get a Covid vaccine in less than a year, I'm sure a plastic company will be able to make such products. But it's a massive campaign. I'm, I'm sort of negotiating at the moment. The MP is up for it. Some local councillors are up for it, some schools are up for it. I want it to be a massive growth 'cause the the point that you were making [M6] about a particular point, although that could be the particular point, 'cause that, that sort of makes us all happy. 'Cause it doesn't matter what plastic you use, doesn't matter if it's single-use plastic or any other. If they've got lifespans of various, various lengths, there's no problem to the planet from producing plastic material. 

<Facilitator: Thank you. Well, this, I mean, this brings us right to time. But I wish we could continue talking about this, because it's just so interesting. And you guys are so awesome, all of you, and speaking with you has given me more hope for the future, I have to say. So thank you so much for coming and taking part and participating.>

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